slackluster: The art of leisure

12:26 PM gf: religion/church sucks in general. aside from ackowledging God, are you trying to do anything else? or just being content with the idea of one?
pk: what do u mean?
12:27 PM gf: like… do u pray, in any way, or try to communicate with God?
try to figure out who he is?
12:31 PM pk: hmm
it’s hard for me to pray
always has been
cuz just feels like i’m talkin to myself
in my head
12:32 PM gf: that sucks
so then, God, in yuor eyes, is a caring being, but not someone you can communicate with?
12:33 PM pk: well, i HOPE he cares
it’s kinda mind boggling when u think about it
i was just chatting with a friend of mine earlier today about this
12:34 PM how if u think about it…
there are like BILLIONS OF PPL on the planet, just right now
so let’s say BILLIONS/TRILLIONS of souls
throughout all time
and somehow God loves/cares about each one individually in a special/unique way??????
mind-boggling
12:35 PM hard to grasp
gf: most of this stuff is hard to grasp. creation is. the fact that I’m IMing you, when you really think about it, is a bit absurd.
12:36 PM pk: yeah
everything is pretty crazy unbelievable
12:38 PM gf: It took having children for me to understand how truly powerless we all are
12:39 PM being in the presence of your kids will ruin any delusions you have about yourself
12:40 PM because (1) they will berate you lol and (2) you realize that, even if you were around them for every minute of every day, you couldn’t possibly protect them from everything
12:41 PM pk: well right
the idea of “control”
we’re not “in control”
as much as we want to be
or believe ourselves to be
which is why i want to believe that there is a God of order..
of love
of peace..
that IS in control
so that i don’t have to worry about things
but it’s really hard for me to grasp that
12:42 PM there is too big a gap, between that hope, and the reality i live in
that make sense?
like the world is too shitty a place
life just seems cruel and unfair
not just for me i mean
but in general
for all
12:43 PM seems more sensible to say that God has created this world, like winding up a toy…
and now things just play out over time
12:45 PM gf: well
thats true to some degree
12:47 PM i believe, at least, in free will
and I believe that God will let you do what you want to do
12:48 PM but I also believe that he steps in when he’s asked to, if those requests line up with what he has in mind

12:56 PM pk: yeah it’s a weird thought
12:57 PM gf: there’s only so much thinking you can do about it
before you get caught up in an infinite loop
12:58 PM so I don’t bother
and my faith (which, in reality, is more of a matter of fact for me) answers a bunch of questions for me, and lets me rest easy in not knowing the answers to the others
1:01 PM pk: definitely…
there are limits to our puny human thoughts
1:02 PM esp. when it comes to an infinite Universe/God
1:04 PM ya know..
i wanna say…
gf: I used to go crazy thinking about it, trying to create my own set of rules, my own morality, something I felt comfortable with
and i just kept making myself into a hypocrite
pk: when we talked/debated the other day
last week…
i felt kinda off after our talk
like, i didn’t feel good about it
1:05 PM gf: you think i’m a loser now?
pk: hehh
nah
lemme clarify
it’d been a while since i got into those kinda talks/debates with my old christian friends
who i used to go to church with
and after a while
i just felt like it was fruitless
i wasn’t going to convince them of anything, and they were just gonna make me feel shitty
so it’s like, whats the point
1:06 PM so i removed myself from those circles…
and really haven’t sought out those kinda discussions/debates
instead i’ve chosen to focus on POSITIVE things
as much as i can
which i feel i always need to strive toward
cuz i tend to be way too serious/negative of a person naturally
but then we had our lil debate
and i just felt pelted again
1:07 PM like ok, i’m not allowed to call myself a christian now
and yada yada yada…
which really, i don’t think was your place to say
or ANYONE’s place to say,
other than God
cuz when anybody says “christian” let’s face it, it means 8 million different things
to 8 million different ppl
gf: and I really still think you dont understand what I mean when I say that… but… “I’ma let you finish”
1:08 PM pk: some ppl think u’re not a christian if u’re not baptised
some ppl think u’re not a christian if u’re gay
some ppl think u’re not a christian if u don’t go to church
and on and on and on and on….
but anyway
trying to be concise about this…
i am too easily influenced
by people
affected, i should say
1:09 PM by circumstances…
by media
etc
and i’m trying to find something more solid
within myself
like who i really am
what my voice really is
what i really believe
not just about God, but about anything
so that i can go out there in the real world
and not sway to and fro based on other ppl’s opinions/judgments of me
1:10 PM whether they be christian or liberal or gay or whatever
so that is my task
at hand
to figure that out
for myself
and i think it’s everyone’s task
but organized religion doesn’t reallly look at it that way
which, i’ve been a part of for so long
1:11 PM gf: can I respond?
1:12 PM pk: hang on 1 sec…
dealing with some delicate client emails…
i’ll finish my thought in a minute
1:13 PM gf: ok

1:22 PM pk: ok sorry
back
ok where was i
ok
1:23 PM i think i was finishing up…
that last point about not being so easily influenced/affected by others
but thats exactly the opposite of what the church encourages
the church has proven to be more about conformity
not individuality and uniqueness of belief/faith
1:24 PM it’s about bouncing each others’ ideas off each other…
(in small group settings at least)
ultimately so that we can all get on the SAME PAGE
the “CORRECT” page
but that’s a very black & white view of looking at things
1:25 PM like whatever the church proclaims (their particular interpretations of scripture, etc.), THAT is THE WAY
and everything else is wrong / deviating / falsehood, etc
this also leads to why i consider myself more an “agnostic” in general these days
1:26 PM is because i think IN THE END, after we all die, i think it’s more likely that everyone was WRONG, than that one particular group was RIGHT and everyone else was WRONG
because that is what bugs me about all these various belief systems
whether it’s christianity
or islam
or atheism even
(and cults, i should add)
everybody makes these claims about God & the afterlife
1:27 PM claims that they have NO proof about
no one can make any definitive statements about what happens after we die
NO ONE.
but all these various religions DO make their claims
and insist that all the other religions are WRONG.
so really, they’re all the same in that regard
they’re all doing the same thing
1:28 PM the same patterns of behavior and belief (even though the specific beliefs are different)
it’s arrogant.
and really overstepping the bounds of human limitations.
1:29 PM this is why agnosticism resonates more with me these days
because it seems the more humble road.
1:30 PM mine is a position of faith, but not certitude….which is kinda inherently what faith is.
it’s a hope
but it is an unknown.
as is the case for the rest of our human lifespans…
i have no idea how the rest of my life will take shape
whether i will get diagnosed with cancer next week
1:31 PM or whether i will end up having 20 grandchildren some day
i have hopes,
but my future is unknown.
whether it be in this lifetime (or the next).
there…i’m done.
:)

(9:46:38 PM) pk: man i was just watching u.s. open
(9:46:45 PM) pk: and it occurred to me…
(9:46:52 PM) pk: i almost ALWAYS root for the underdog
(9:47:00 PM) pk: in any sport / competition, etc
(9:47:13 PM) pk: which basically also means that i almost always end up rooting for the loser
(9:47:32 PM) pk: which means, i’m on the losing side more often than not, and end up disappointed
(9:47:48 PM) pk: but i dunno
(9:48:02 PM) pk: i dont understand how ppl root for the ppl who ALWAYS WIN
(9:48:44 PM) wy: i don’t think that’s how people look at it
(9:48:50 PM) wy: they root for people they like.
(9:49:05 PM) wy: and if it’s a good player or team, then they will almost always be happy
(9:49:30 PM) wy: it’s like people who root for the yankees
(9:49:39 PM) wy: new yorkers root for them because they live in new york
(9:49:52 PM) wy: not necessarily because the team is great
(9:49:58 PM) wy: although most of the time they are anyways
(9:50:05 PM) pk: i can understand location-based pride
(9:50:13 PM) pk: rooting for your home team
(9:50:19 PM) wy: people do that with tennis
(9:50:25 PM) wy: english root for english players
(9:50:31 PM) wy: and americans root for fellow americans
(9:50:37 PM) wy: it’s not all that different.
(9:50:48 PM) pk: but like, when i was there last week
(9:50:57 PM) pk: some dude was playing vs federer
(9:51:07 PM) pk: and like, there were ppl specifically cheering on federer
(9:51:11 PM) pk: lots more ppl
(9:51:14 PM) pk: vocally in the crowd
(9:51:18 PM) pk: he’s not american
(9:51:20 PM) wy: that’s because they were fans of federer
(9:51:26 PM) pk: he’s the heavy favorite in that case
(9:51:30 PM) wy: he’s a recognizable name
(9:51:32 PM) pk: u figure he’s gonna win anyway
(9:51:35 PM) wy: the other dude not so much
(9:51:50 PM) pk: so if he’s down a point, i dunno why ppl were like C’MON FEDERER!
(9:51:52 PM) pk: YOU CAN DO IT
(9:51:53 PM) pk: kinda thing
(9:52:01 PM) pk: i just found it kinda baffling
(9:52:14 PM) pk: cuz i was thinkin, why even waste your breath? OF COURSE he’s gonna do it
(9:52:18 PM) pk: OF COURSE he’s gonna win
(9:52:20 PM) pk: duh
(9:52:49 PM) wy: there’s always a slim possibility he’ll lose
(9:52:53 PM) wy: and he did eventually
(9:52:56 PM) wy: he’s not in the finals
(9:53:07 PM) pk: right
(9:53:13 PM) pk: i wish i saw THAT match
(9:53:44 PM) wy: hahaha
(9:53:58 PM) wy: it was a very close match, i thought
(9:53:59 PM) pk: i guess my overall point is…
(9:54:01 PM) wy: i didn’t see it
(9:54:04 PM) pk: i always choose an uphill battle
(9:54:10 PM) pk: in life
(9:54:29 PM) pk: i don’t exactly make things easier for myself that way
(9:54:32 PM) pk: always swimming upstream
(9:54:45 PM) pk: it’s like if everybody is doing A, i want to do B.
(9:55:20 PM) wy: there’s more people than you think who feel the same way
(9:55:30 PM) pk: well i hope so
(9:55:44 PM) pk: i guess these are “my people” i need to find
(9:55:54 PM) wy: hahahaha
(9:56:02 PM) wy: well, i’m one of the same
(9:56:31 PM) pk: really?
(9:56:49 PM) pk: u consistently find yourself in a similar position?
(9:57:06 PM) pk: i was just thinkin about it, this year in particular…. i’ve dealt with like ALL losses of my teams
(9:57:19 PM) wy: i generally like rooting for underdogs, or teams that aren’t the universal favorite
(9:57:22 PM) pk: from NCAA final (Butler losing to Duke) <--- man that depressed me
(9:57:26 PM) pk: cuz i HATE duke
(9:57:35 PM) wy: hate is a strong word
(9:57:35 PM) pk: then Holland losing to Spain in the WC final
(9:57:47 PM) pk: and now Nadal beating Djokovic
(9:57:49 PM) pk: oh
(9:57:56 PM) pk: not to mention the LAKERS winning
(9:57:57 PM) pk: argggh
(9:58:10 PM) wy: hahaha. that’s hardly terrible.
(9:58:20 PM) wy: you’re picking teams that actually made it into the finals
(9:58:26 PM) wy: hardly picking an underdog.
(9:58:32 PM) pk: well, not exactly
(9:58:37 PM) pk: Butler was a TOTAL underdog
(9:58:39 PM) pk: throughout the tourney
(9:58:46 PM) wy: i don’t follow college basketball
(9:58:46 PM) pk: and Holland i ALWAYS root for
(9:58:54 PM) pk: they just happened to make it all the way to the final this time
(9:58:57 PM) pk: they’ve still never won
(9:59:07 PM) wy: that’s actually overachieving then
(9:59:13 PM) wy: there’s no reason for disappointment
(9:59:16 PM) wy: it’s a win
(9:59:16 PM) pk: and the Lakers? i just root for ANYONE WHO’S PLAYING VS. THE LAKERS
(9:59:22 PM) wy: hahahaha
(9:59:28 PM) wy: i feel the same way.
(9:59:32 PM) wy: i’m not a fan of kobe
(9:59:44 PM) wy: he’s become too cocky for his own good.
(9:59:53 PM) pk: seriously
(9:59:56 PM) pk: i never liked him
(10:00:00 PM) pk: i was just thinkin the other day
(10:00:06 PM) pk: after goin to us open last week
(10:00:13 PM) pk: how i’m really not into watching sports any more
(10:00:18 PM) pk: i used to be SOOOO into it as a kid
(10:00:22 PM) pk: i knew all the teams
(10:00:24 PM) pk: all the players
(10:00:27 PM) pk: all the stats
(10:00:28 PM) pk: etc
(10:00:33 PM) pk: but now…
(10:00:38 PM) pk: i just see corporate logos everywhere
(10:00:49 PM) pk: and know about their multimillion dollar contracts
(10:01:08 PM) pk: and indiscretions off the field/court
(10:01:31 PM) pk: yes…i suppose i’m jaded
(10:01:56 PM) pk: i was thinkin about Jordan the other day
(10:02:07 PM) pk: i felt like after he left the NBA, i just stopped caring about NBA
(10:02:25 PM) pk: i think the only reason i get into NCAA/march madness is cuz it’s a bunch of “kids”
(10:02:44 PM) pk: they’re not multi-millionaires (yet)
(10:02:51 PM) pk: and it’s just so erratic
(10:02:54 PM) pk: and raw emotion
(10:02:56 PM) pk: drama
(10:03:49 PM) wy: eh.
(10:03:58 PM) wy: i think it’s mostly because you’re older now
(10:04:11 PM) wy: you have no need to live vicariously through sports heroes anymore
(10:04:18 PM) wy: like you might have as a kid
(10:04:24 PM) wy: i know that’s how i look at it
(10:04:30 PM) pk: yeah. i think that’s a big part of it
(10:04:31 PM) wy: i rarely watch any sports
(10:04:38 PM) pk: as a kid u’re all about ASPIRATION
(10:04:44 PM) pk: dreams of what you may become “some day”
(10:04:51 PM) pk: but now, that “some day” has come (and gone)
(10:05:12 PM) pk: so u kinda don’t even wanna think about it any more
(10:05:48 PM) wy: yup

(1:32:00 AM) pk: christians nowadays tend to think that they’ve got the Truth…and everyone else is going to hell
(1:32:06 AM) pk: i’m not really on board with that
(1:32:39 AM) ad: so you believe that there is more then one way to Heaven besides Jesus
(1:32:49 AM) pk: that can mean a lot of different things
(1:32:55 AM) pk: like we ALL die
(1:33:06 AM) pk: and when some person on a tiny island in the middle of nowhere dies
(1:33:16 AM) pk: maybe only at that point they are face to face with Jesus
(1:33:31 AM) pk: and who’s to say Jesus wouldnt take them by the hand and welcome them in..
(1:33:42 AM) pk: i mean, if his sacrifice really DID cover ALL SIN
(1:34:00 AM) pk: it was very much in Jesus’ character
(1:34:07 AM) pk: to reach out to people in honesty and love
(1:34:17 AM) pk: which i see very little of, a lot of time with christians
(1:34:26 AM) pk: with people who call themselves christians, i mean
(1:34:39 AM) pk: i mean, u throw out the word “christian”
(1:34:46 AM) pk: it can mean so many different things to so many different ppl
(1:35:10 AM) ad: i agree. but people are human…..we all have faults and are going to let other people down. it doesn’t mean that the truth isn’t the truth
(1:35:19 AM) pk: sure
(1:35:23 AM) pk: but i am seeking out the Truth
(1:35:27 AM) pk: THAT is what i’m doing
(1:35:29 AM) pk: it’s not easy
(1:35:34 AM) pk: but i am genuinely seeking truth
(1:35:43 AM) pk: and am discovering things along the way
(1:35:47 AM) pk: that are disturbing
(1:35:51 AM) pk: or difficult to face
(1:35:58 AM) pk: or hard to even entertain the thought of
(1:36:09 AM) pk: this is my honest pursuit tho
(1:36:11 AM) ad: like what?
(1:36:14 AM) pk: that i really felt hindered to pursue
(1:36:21 AM) pk: while in a church small group
(1:36:38 AM) pk: the point of those always seemed to be to all get back on the same page as the “worksheet”
(1:36:48 AM) pk: as if all the answers are already clear
(1:36:55 AM) pk: and we all just need to read such and such
(1:37:08 AM) pk: and accept that is the ultimate unquestionable undeniable Truth
(1:37:38 AM) pk: like, christians will come out and say that the Bible is the divine word of God, without any blemish, totally perfect… etc..
(1:37:42 AM) pk: we can’t question it
(1:37:46 AM) pk: or anything
(1:37:51 AM) pk: we have to just blindly accept it ALL
(1:37:58 AM) pk: and what do we base that decision on?
(1:38:06 AM) pk: well because THE BOOK itself tells us so!
(1:38:31 AM) pk: it’s like, if i came out with a new religion, and in it, it says that PK IS GOD. everyone has to bow down and worship him…
(1:38:41 AM) pk: and ppl said, well WHY SHOULD WE DO THAT??
(1:38:54 AM) pk: and i went, well here…it’s right here in verse 23..it says WORSHIP PK
(1:39:00 AM) pk: obviously it’s circular thinking
(1:39:27 AM) pk: of a book/author just makes a claim, its defense can’t just be, well…cuz the book/author says so
(1:39:30 AM) pk: u know?
(1:40:09 AM) pk: as far as i’m concerned, Paul was a man… just like Tim Keller is a man
(1:40:14 AM) pk: just like you and i are just men
(1:40:17 AM) pk: we’re all flawed
(1:40:22 AM) pk: we all have our personalities
(1:40:28 AM) pk: and strengths & weaknesses
(1:40:48 AM) pk: nobody can come along and say that EVERYTHING that any of us says…is somehow GOD-BREATHED and unquestionable
(1:40:53 AM) pk: i just find that highly dubious
(1:41:02 AM) pk: and self-serving
(1:41:07 AM) ad: yes…..and it basically comes down to how do you find the truth. are you going to read a book and “do” what it says or are you going to experience it, in a personal way?
(1:41:17 AM) pk: right
(1:41:20 AM) pk: more the latter
(1:41:43 AM) ad: right, so until you try to experience God and the bible in a personal way…..you really don’t know the truth
(1:42:13 AM) pk: well, if u believe the Bible is the ONLY way to experience God
(1:42:19 AM) pk: i don’t think necessarily that it is
(1:42:41 AM) pk: even though, as of today, it’s still my primary source for knowing anything tangible about God
(1:42:55 AM) pk: but i question things
(1:43:00 AM) pk: it’s in my nature to question things
(1:43:09 AM) ad: what are you basing the assumption that the bible isn’t the only way to God?
(1:43:19 AM) pk: and the past couple years i’ve been questioning just what exactly it is that i believe, AND….WHY i believe so?
(1:43:34 AM) pk: well it’s something that cannot be proven, one way or another
(1:43:41 AM) pk: that’s something i’ve been thinking about lately
(1:43:50 AM) pk: no one can actually PROVE that there is a God or isn’t.
(1:44:02 AM) pk: and no one can PROVE what happens after we die
(1:44:07 AM) pk: there simply is no evidence
(1:44:23 AM) pk: i struggled with that for a stretch last spring
(1:44:28 AM) pk: lost a lot of sleep over it
(1:44:39 AM) pk: cuz the idea of atheism seemed so utterly DEPRESSING
(1:44:45 AM) pk: but eventually i found some peace
(1:47:49 AM) ad: do you respect TK?
(1:47:54 AM) pk: sure
(1:47:56 AM) pk: i respect him
(1:48:00 AM) pk: but he IS fallible
(1:48:05 AM) ad: have you read his book?
(1:48:10 AM) pk: yeah i did
(1:48:18 AM) pk: i’ve learned a lot from his teachings
(1:48:32 AM) pk: but…he’s also said some stuff that i have great issue with
(1:48:41 AM) pk: he’ll just spout off some stuff like it’s truth
(1:48:47 AM) ad: such as?
(1:48:56 AM) pk: like i went to an open forum a couple years ago
(1:49:01 AM) pk: he was talkin about the afterlife
(1:49:02 AM) pk: ugh
(1:49:07 AM) pk: like this is the way it’s going to be
(1:49:12 AM) pk: and i was just like UGH
(1:49:12 AM) pk: DUDE
(1:49:19 AM) pk: YOU DON’T *KNOW***** THAT!
(1:49:24 AM) pk: so stop talkin like you know it
(1:49:27 AM) pk: it’s just a *theory*
(1:49:30 AM) pk: so, label it as such
(1:49:44 AM) ad: well i don’t think he would ever say that something like that would be fact
(1:50:35 AM) pk: but he doesn’t preface his stuff
(1:50:38 AM) pk: when he says things
(1:50:40 AM) pk: which bothers me
(1:50:47 AM) ad: i haven’t heard or read of anything he mentioned on that issue that he would say “this is complete fact”
(1:50:48 AM) pk: it’s very important to make those distinctions
(1:50:58 AM) ad: preface it with what
(1:51:08 AM) ad: with him saying “this is my opinion”?
(1:51:10 AM) pk: with like “hey, i may be wrong about this..but….”
(1:51:11 AM) pk: right
(1:51:24 AM) ad: i think he does that….a lot actually
(1:51:32 AM) pk: nah
(1:51:39 AM) pk: i’ve heard him ENOUGH TIMES just say stuff
(1:51:45 AM) pk: obviously not EVERY time
(1:51:49 AM) pk: but he’s done it ENOUGH times
(1:51:53 AM) pk: where i take issue with it
(1:52:04 AM) pk: it’s a sort of arrogance that i think a lot of christians have
(1:52:12 AM) ad: you’ll have to show me an example because everything i’ve seen or heard he has been completely open about this being his opinion
(1:52:14 AM) pk: they’re not willing to say, hey… i don’t know.
(1:52:23 AM) pk: well, i don’t go there any more, so…
(1:52:31 AM) pk: i can only tell you from past experience
(1:52:35 AM) ad: i would say that of any Christian…..he would say “i don’t know…”
(1:53:29 AM) ad: PK it seems like you’ve had some very bad experiences with Christians
(1:54:53 AM) pk: yeah u could say that
(1:55:03 AM) pk: i think it just bothers me that christians are always proclaiming things on me
(1:55:17 AM) pk: and i’ve felt so much “healthier” the more i’ve gotten away from those circles
(1:55:21 AM) pk: where i can just breathe
(1:55:24 AM) pk: and *be*
(1:55:29 AM) pk: without someone clamoring at me
(1:56:36 AM) ad: i understand and completely respect that. i’ve had similar experiences…..but humans are humans. they are going to have bad days and they are going to let everyone down. that doesn’t mean that the bible isn’t true or that God doesn’t relate to us on every level and that we need to reach out to him….and seek him first
(1:59:14 AM) pk: humans are humans, yes
(1:59:25 AM) pk: but i feel such less a pressure from my nonchristian friends
(1:59:32 AM) pk: they tend to just let me BE
(1:59:34 AM) pk: who i am
(1:59:39 AM) pk: without raining judgment on me all the time
(1:59:44 AM) pk: or saying that i HAVE to do this…or that
(2:00:02 AM) pk: i really just hate being judged
(2:00:09 AM) pk: and constantly too
(2:00:19 AM) pk: which is why i’ve been making strides this past 6 months
(2:00:34 AM) pk: to surround myself with the best ppl (both christian and nonchristian)
(2:00:38 AM) pk: ppl who care for me
(2:00:41 AM) pk: who respect me, for who i am
(2:00:47 AM) pk: ppl who are positive
(2:00:52 AM) pk: etc
(2:01:05 AM) pk: ppl who, i feel better off, afterward…after spending time with them
(2:01:06 AM) pk: etc
(2:01:12 AM) pk: NOT ppl who bring me down
(2:01:16 AM) pk: or make me feel miserable
(2:01:19 AM) pk: or guilty, or whatever
(2:02:59 AM) ad: of course non-Christians are going to not judge you…..they have no moral standard. i mean all virtue and morality is from God because the ideas or morality and virtue are perfect and humans can’t create a perfect idea. Christian who judge and cast stones are not living as Christians should…..and yes, we should stay away from them….BUT that doesn’t necessarily mean that we should not continue to seek Christians who live as true Christians
(2:03:25 AM) pk: ah
(2:03:30 AM) pk: but thing is..
(2:03:34 AM) pk: they DO have a moral standard
(2:03:40 AM) pk: it’s just a lot more general
(2:03:51 AM) pk: if i go and murder someone, they’re gonna call me out on it
(2:04:09 AM) pk: if i don’t go to church on a sunday morning, then whatever…it’s my life, my choice…what i wanna do with my time
(2:04:15 AM) pk: they respect that
(2:04:26 AM) pk: and don’t subtly condemn me to hell for it
(2:04:58 AM) pk: well right tho
(2:05:05 AM) pk: as i finished reading what u just wrote
(2:05:11 AM) pk: i still DO have christians in my life
(2:05:26 AM) pk: and i have long deeep conversations with my mom about the deepest spiritual matters
(2:05:37 AM) pk: it’s not like i’m cutting off anything remotely christian
(2:05:47 AM) pk: i want TRUTH
(2:05:50 AM) pk: ultimately
(2:05:55 AM) pk: i want to be at peace
(2:05:57 AM) pk: about the life i live
(2:06:01 AM) pk: and what happens when i die
(2:06:05 AM) pk: if there is a God
(2:06:06 AM) pk: then yes
(2:06:15 AM) pk: i want him/her/it to be well-pleased with me
(2:06:18 AM) pk: in the end
(2:06:20 AM) ad: they have a moral standard from God. the philosophical debate goes….”Is “good”, good because God says go or is it “good” in and of it’s self”. the answer has to be because God says so or else God is subject to something else. non-Christians want to say there is no God because they think they know what is better for their lives then God does and they know how to live their lives in a better way.
(2:07:30 AM) pk: well..
(2:07:34 AM) pk: let’s make a distinction tho
(2:07:47 AM) pk: there’s a difference between a “non-christian” and an “atheist”
(2:08:07 AM) ad: absolutely
(2:08:17 AM) pk: again like the rice example
(2:08:19 AM) pk: that esther said
(2:08:34 AM) pk: it could still be the same ultimate GOD/supreme being
(2:08:40 AM) pk: that other religions are referring to
(2:09:00 AM) pk: u know the elephant metaphor
(2:09:18 AM) ad: yes but the issue is truth…..yes, where other religions aren’t totally the truth, they only have parts of it
(2:10:08 AM) pk: right, well this is how i see it
(2:10:26 AM) pk: i tweeted this last year or so
(2:10:31 AM) pk: and made a card for it
(2:10:51 AM) pk: “i do think there’s an objective truth. i just think all we have are our subjective glimpses at it.”
(2:11:09 AM) pk: that’s the best way i can sum it up
(2:12:05 AM) ad: but your subjective truth had to have come from somewhere
(2:12:13 AM) ad: truth isn’t just “made up”
(2:12:20 AM) pk: again
(2:12:24 AM) pk: re-read my quote
(2:12:28 AM) ad: the one who can see the entire Elephant knows what it looks like
(2:12:31 AM) pk: right
(2:12:34 AM) pk: but that is NONE of us
(2:12:41 AM) ad: no, it is God
(2:12:43 AM) pk: right
(2:12:45 AM) pk: we’re not God
(2:12:48 AM) pk: so we’re limited
(2:12:53 AM) pk: CHRISTIANS are limited
(2:12:57 AM) pk: BUDDHISTS are limited
(2:13:03 AM) ad: yes absolutely, that is why we need the bible
(2:13:03 AM) pk: EVERYONE is limited
(2:13:11 AM) pk: but even in our understanding of God
(2:13:15 AM) pk: or interpretation of scripture
(2:13:18 AM) pk: we’re all LIMITED
(2:13:20 AM) pk: and prone to error
(2:13:22 AM) pk: CONSTANTLY
(2:13:32 AM) pk: u can take me specifically out of the equation
(2:13:36 AM) ad: only if you don’t seek God’s help
(2:13:40 AM) pk: look at all the billions of denominations
(2:13:46 AM) pk: EVERYBODY sees things THEIR OWN way
(2:13:54 AM) pk: whether you’re baptist or presbyterian even
(2:14:00 AM) pk: it’s all a subjective grasping in the dark
(2:14:06 AM) pk: at whatever really IS true
(2:14:10 AM) pk: u see my point now?
(2:14:26 AM) pk: u can’t get away with just saying well the bible is absolute truth.
(2:14:33 AM) pk: it just doesn’t work.
(2:14:54 AM) pk: if it’s absolute truth as you claim, then how come there are a million different denominations and interpretations of it?
(2:15:04 AM) ad: someone can read the bible as a book. he can look at it as chapter and verse and not the divine inspired word of God. it either has spiritual value or it doesn’t for the reader. you can see spiritual power that can affect your life or you don’t. the only way to actually read the bible is by relying on God to show you the truth in it
(2:15:20 AM) pk: yeah but dude
(2:15:25 AM) pk: baptists read it one way
(2:15:30 AM) pk: lutherans read it another way
(2:15:34 AM) pk: catholics read it another way
(2:15:38 AM) pk: they all claim to be inspired by God
(2:15:41 AM) pk: or spiritual people
(2:15:46 AM) pk: or however u wanna phrase it
(2:15:55 AM) pk: but obviously, they all interpret it *different* ways
(2:16:03 AM) pk: which, is ok
(2:16:06 AM) pk: just proves my point.
(2:16:35 AM) ad: true but this doesn’t mean it isn’t truth. the differences aren’t as great as athetists believe or want to believe. yes, the interpretations are different because WE are different. we all have our own little “issue” that we want to focus on
(2:16:48 AM) pk: no single denomination can come out and PROCLAIM ABSOLUTE TRUTH…like they’ve got it all figured out, and everyone else is wrong. obviously, THEY STILL DO THIS (even though they shouldn’t), but i think they’re arrogant and foolish to be doing so
(2:18:40 AM) ad: no, no denomination says “we have absolute” truth…..PEOPLE do that….. denoms say, “this is the way we interpret it” we have the choice to take it or leave it. the good thing about God is that he is going to save everyone who live his live for Christ…..no matter what denomination church he goes to
(2:19:23 AM) pk: well, that’s what you believe.
(2:19:38 AM) pk: and denoms vs the ppl in the denoms…
(2:20:05 AM) pk: not that important a distinction to make, cuz obviously talking about a “denomination” is just an ideal/theoretical thing
(2:20:12 AM) pk: what we actually deal with are the PEOPLE
(2:20:17 AM) pk: who make up a denomination
(2:20:43 AM) pk: not some council that declares “officially” what the denomination’s stances are
(2:22:49 AM) ad: yep….and it goes back to people. good people, “bad” people…..we have to deal with them everyday. the point is, Christians are fallible and we need to be seeking God and growing in our faith for ourselves…..until we know that we are secure enough to make a difference towards others
(2:23:02 AM) ad: a lot of Christians can’t make that distinction
(2:23:16 AM) pk: right
(2:23:20 AM) pk: everyone is on a spiritual journey
(2:23:28 AM) pk: and they should seek God and Truth in all they do
(2:23:29 AM) ad: and do stupid things…..like judge and make people feel guilty to make themselves feel better
(2:23:42 AM) pk: and (as most any religion proclaims) they should seek to do what is right
(2:23:49 AM) pk: they should seek to LOVE each other
(2:23:57 AM) pk: as Christ summed it all up
(2:24:10 AM) pk: love God, and love your neighbor as you love yourself
(2:24:18 AM) pk: that is my religion
(2:24:58 AM) pk: it’s kinda amazing how different one’s life can look if you JUST focus on that
(2:25:36 AM) pk: i’m not involved in organized religion much at all any more, but…..i’m so much happier now, healthier, and *capable* of loving myself and thus loving others as i love myself
(2:25:54 AM) pk: if u can’t love yourself you’re not going to be able to love ANYONE
(2:26:11 AM) pk: that should really be more emphasized in the church
(2:26:16 AM) pk: it would save a LOT of grief
(2:26:24 AM) pk: so many christians i know seem to be in such inner turmoil
(2:26:30 AM) pk: always feeling GUILTY all the time
(2:26:35 AM) pk: and so easily upset
(2:26:38 AM) pk: etc
(2:26:41 AM) pk: i used to be like that
(2:26:55 AM) pk: and well, just tons of christians
(2:27:16 AM) pk: i love the way my mom put it to me a long time ago
(2:27:21 AM) pk: when u’re on the airplane
(2:27:23 AM) pk: they advise you..
(2:27:30 AM) pk: put your own oxygen mask on FIRST
(2:27:37 AM) pk: then you can help your child (or whomever)
(2:28:02 AM) pk: funny how i NEVER hear that preached in church
(2:28:12 AM) pk: and yet, it was some of the most pivotal words i’ve ever heard
(2:28:21 AM) pk: and it’s taking me years now to try and implement
(2:28:34 AM) ad: well, i understand that…..but church is the only place where we get renewed. guilt is the spirit’s nervous system….if we didn’t have it, we wouldn’t know when we were bleeding. God gives us freedom to choose and freedom to mess up. we all deal with guilt in our own way but Christ teaches us to free ourselves from guilt after seeking repentance.
(2:28:45 AM) pk: nah dude
(2:28:53 AM) pk: don’t confuse *guilt* with *conviction*
(2:28:57 AM) pk: those are VERY different things.
(2:29:15 AM) pk: a lot of christians *should* be in the “conviction” space
(2:29:20 AM) pk: but instead, they’re racked with guilt
(2:29:25 AM) pk: which is demoralizing
(2:29:32 AM) pk: and they have a hard time living with themselves
(2:29:37 AM) pk: thus have a hard time dealing with others
(2:30:51 AM) ad: so in what way does that statement mix guilt and conviction. our convictions try to help us not mess up…..guilt is there to know when we did mess up….
(2:31:18 AM) pk: conviction is healthy, guilt is unhealthy.
(2:31:28 AM) pk: considering your “bleeding” example..
(2:31:38 AM) pk: it’s like *pain* vs *paranoia*
(2:31:43 AM) pk: real pain is necessary
(2:31:48 AM) pk: when u’re finger’s on fire
(2:31:52 AM) pk: u need to know it’s hurting
(2:31:55 AM) pk: in order to stop
(2:32:13 AM) pk: but if u’re finger is not actually on fire, but u’re paranoid about it being on fire, THAT my friend…is a problem.
(2:32:16 AM) pk: that is guilt.
(2:32:25 AM) pk: unhealthy, irrational guilt.
(2:32:39 AM) ad: but after the pain leaves…..you know what that experience was like
(2:34:25 AM) ad: sure people use guilt as a weapon…..but how else are you not going to do something that is bad for you? you keep burning your finger until you hand rots off?
(2:34:43 AM) pk: u’re not seeing the distinction
(2:35:04 AM) pk: that’s like saying… how else are you gonna keep your finger from rotting off (if it’s not even on fire in the first place)?
(2:35:17 AM) pk: the key is to realize…your finger’s not going to rot off in the first place..
(2:35:27 AM) pk: cuz your finger is not *actually* on fire
(2:35:38 AM) ad: you’re talking about paranoia…..
(2:35:47 AM) ad: i’m talking about practical experience
(2:35:49 AM) pk: it has to do with an overzealousness of christians to label virtually EVERYTHING as “sin”
(2:35:53 AM) pk: it IS paranoia
(2:36:02 AM) pk: like me not going to church on sunday mornings
(2:36:06 AM) pk: it is totally okay
(2:36:15 AM) pk: but christians will look at me like i’m some sinner
(2:36:20 AM) ad: you only have paranoia after you experience something….right?
(2:36:21 AM) pk: lollygagging off to hell
(2:36:26 AM) pk: u hear me?
(2:36:33 AM) pk: it is ppl calling things sins
(2:36:36 AM) pk: overzealously
(2:36:40 AM) pk: it is paranoia
(2:36:43 AM) pk: and unhealthy
(2:36:55 AM) pk: i’ve seen so many ppl enter into such a self destructive cycle
(2:36:58 AM) pk: that they can’t get out of
(2:37:04 AM) pk: they feel bad about themselves ALL THE TIME
(2:37:07 AM) pk: it’s sad, really.
(2:37:13 AM) pk: i feel sad for them
(2:37:24 AM) pk: and i feel sad that i used to be that way too
(2:37:26 AM) pk: it’s a shame
(2:37:35 AM) pk: i wish i’ve realized things that i’ve realized *sooner* in my life
(2:37:40 AM) pk: but i guess that is life
(2:37:48 AM) pk: you learn valuable lessons over time, thru experience
(2:37:56 AM) pk: i’m wiser now for it
(2:38:05 AM) pk: and there are still many more things for me to learn
(2:38:05 AM) ad: ok, you’re talking about a total far extreme experience…and you’re basing your experience on what you’ve seen other do…. i mean you’ve never come in contact with “normal” Christians?
(2:38:09 AM) pk: throughout the rest of my life
(2:38:17 AM) pk: dude
(2:38:22 AM) pk: i am talking about “normal” christians
(2:38:28 AM) pk: ppl i have encountered in smallgroups
(2:38:31 AM) pk: every small group i go to
(2:38:33 AM) ad: no, you’re not
(2:38:37 AM) pk: it’s not some freak of nature i’m talking about
(2:39:11 AM) pk: it’s really a shame
(2:39:12 AM) ad: you’re talking about people who haven’t come to terms with what and how God is working in their lives. yes, i’m gonna call those people out…..and i am only basing this on what you’re telling me….
(2:39:32 AM) pk: it’s a lot of christians though man
(2:39:34 AM) ad: IF these people are the way you’re describing….. then yes, they are messed up
(2:39:47 AM) pk: i would say at least 30-40% of who i’ve met, and gone deeper with
(2:40:31 AM) pk: and that number could be a lot higher, i just haven’t gone deeper with TONS of ppl… it’s hard to, for a variety of obvious reasons
(2:41:12 AM) ad: the real thing is PK…..you can assume a lot about a person through one meeting….. you really honestly don’t know how that person feels about his guilt or “paranoia”. maybe he confessed to you or the small group and walked out of that room a changed man, maybe he is dealing with it day in and day out….the point is…..you don’t know and you can’t base your believes on something that is extreme
(2:41:46 AM) pk: dude
(2:41:49 AM) pk: it’s not one meeting
(2:41:54 AM) pk: i’m talking about ppl i REALLY know
(2:42:01 AM) pk: like being in smallgroup with them for a good couple years
(2:42:16 AM) ad: and so what if it’s 25 meetings? are you that perfect to in fact….”judge” them?
(2:42:37 AM) pk: who’s judging them?
(2:42:41 AM) pk: i witness their behavior
(2:42:50 AM) pk: and i see similar patterns in my own behavior in the past
(2:43:05 AM) pk: and its their choice, how they want to go about fixing their problems (if they even want to call it a problem)
(2:43:07 AM) ad: and make a decision about God and guilt, faith and the bible based on it?
(2:43:18 AM) pk: but my only responsibility is my own soul
(2:43:28 AM) pk: i have to figure out my own issues
(2:43:31 AM) pk: and deal with them
(2:43:37 AM) pk: and figure out what works for me
(2:43:41 AM) pk: it’s my own personal spiritual journey
(2:43:53 AM) pk: and i believe every person has their very own unique spiritual path
(2:44:04 AM) pk: and honestly, to each his own
(2:44:10 AM) pk: i don’t lay judgment on any one
(2:44:16 AM) pk: let each person do whatever it is they believe
(2:44:19 AM) pk: that’s fine
(2:44:38 AM) pk: i was just saying earlier, that i feel sorry for some ppl, when they seem to have such self-destructive patterns
(2:44:55 AM) pk: and the church only seems to be reinforcing those issues for them
(2:45:08 AM) pk: but hey, that’s their choice to keep going
(2:45:19 AM) pk: it’s all personal freedom
(2:45:25 AM) pk: God gives us all freedom
(2:45:32 AM) pk: to think and believe and live as we will
(2:45:39 AM) pk: i think it’s a wonderful thing
(2:45:45 AM) pk: otherwise we’d all just be robots
(2:45:52 AM) pk: pre-programmed
(2:46:11 AM) ad: dude, the church is not reinforcing those issues for them…..i don’t know why you say that.
(2:46:30 AM) pk: because the church doesn’t tend to encourage ppl
(2:46:40 AM) ad: it absolutely does
(2:46:51 AM) pk: i, personally, have found INFINITE more encouragement ELSEWHERE
(2:47:02 AM) pk: to really believe in myself
(2:47:06 AM) pk: and all that i can accomplish
(2:47:09 AM) pk: and do with my life
(2:47:24 AM) ad: so your encouragement is found in yourself?
(2:47:35 AM) pk: encouragement & inspiration from all sorts of sources
(2:47:43 AM) pk: but ultimately it comes down to what am *i* gonna do with it
(2:47:49 AM) pk: what am i gonna make happen
(2:47:49 AM) ad: such as?
(2:47:54 AM) pk: whatever it is
(2:47:57 AM) pk: professionally
(2:47:59 AM) pk: creatively
(2:48:00 AM) pk: socially
(2:48:02 AM) pk: romantically
(2:48:04 AM) pk: physically
(2:48:07 AM) pk: anything
(2:48:11 AM) ad: so through other people
(2:48:23 AM) pk: einstein
(2:48:25 AM) pk: picasso
(2:48:27 AM) pk: my mom
(2:48:31 AM) pk: Dexter
(2:48:33 AM) pk: wherever
(2:48:35 AM) pk: whomever
(2:48:38 AM) pk: a beautiful sunset
(2:48:42 AM) pk: it’s all beautiful
(2:48:43 AM) pk: inspiring
(2:48:50 AM) pk: etc
(2:48:55 AM) pk: so much to take in in life
(2:49:05 AM) pk: i dont want to spend my days relearning multiplication tables
(2:49:10 AM) pk: i got that down
(2:49:22 AM) pk: thats how i’ve begun to feel about time in church
(2:49:24 AM) pk: it’s not time well spent
(2:49:38 AM) pk: and u can try and refute that if u like
(2:49:44 AM) pk: but Christ himself may agree with me on this one
(2:49:46 AM) pk: he went out there
(2:49:49 AM) pk: and DID stuff
(2:49:53 AM) pk: ate with taxcollectors
(2:49:55 AM) pk: and the sinners
(2:50:00 AM) pk: hung with the prostitutes
(2:50:13 AM) pk: allowed her to dip her hair and the oil and all that
(2:50:19 AM) pk: with his feet
(2:50:31 AM) ad: PK…..Jesus did all of those things because God told him to. you are not Jesus
(2:50:34 AM) pk: he didn’t just hang out among the religious elite
(2:50:52 AM) pk: in fact, it was the religious elite who was pretty much the only ones he was EVER condemning
(2:50:56 AM) pk: i always come back to that
(2:50:59 AM) pk: and smile
(2:51:26 AM) pk: uh
(2:51:29 AM) pk: i am not Jesus?
(2:51:32 AM) pk: duh
(2:51:37 AM) pk: what’s your point?
(2:52:25 AM) ad: your examples of him doing these things……you want to pattern your life after that? why did he do those things?
(2:52:37 AM) ad: to lead them to God
(2:53:23 AM) ad: if you’re going to do that, great….have at it!
(2:53:56 AM) ad: dude, this is probably not a good conversation to be having over AIM….
(2:54:06 AM) ad: why don’t we finish this at a later time
(2:54:09 AM) pk: word
(2:54:17 AM) pk: yeah whenever you’re next back in nyc
(2:54:22 AM) ad: totally
(2:54:33 AM) pk: i dunno if i told u before
(2:54:36 AM) pk: but i started a group
(2:54:38 AM) ad: over some beer and a good beat down delivered by Man Yoo!
(2:54:48 AM) pk: an alternative to the redeemer fellowship group
(2:55:00 AM) pk: where anyone/everyone can come together
(2:55:03 AM) pk: to discuss these very things
(2:55:08 AM) pk: very openly, and respectfully
(2:55:20 AM) ad: sounds like a great idea
(2:55:30 AM) pk: i have jewish friends, atheist friends, agnostic friends, christian friends, and everything else under the sun
(2:55:41 AM) ad: sounds cool
(2:55:43 AM) pk: i like the mix
(2:55:54 AM) pk: so it’s not just christians talking amongst christians
(2:55:58 AM) pk: i’ll invite you for the next one
(2:56:05 AM) pk: whenever you’re back
(2:56:10 AM) ad: sounds good
(2:56:20 AM) pk: oh
(2:56:29 AM) pk: and by “beat down” you must mean FIFA actually
(2:56:36 AM) pk: you RECEIVING the beat down
(2:56:38 AM) pk: as Man Yoo
(2:56:39 AM) pk: ;)
(2:56:41 AM) ad: haha
(2:56:56 AM) ad: we need to take that to the real pitch
(2:57:03 AM) pk: yeah we do
(2:57:07 AM) pk: when the weather warms up
(2:57:10 AM) pk: u’re a big dude tho
(2:57:14 AM) ad: we’ll see who gets the beat down ;)
(2:57:18 AM) pk: u could prolly hurt me
(2:57:19 AM) pk: haha
(2:57:21 AM) ad: haha
(2:57:36 AM) ad: alright…..i’m off to bed
(2:57:37 AM) pk: i’ll have to dish the ball off, before u get anywhere near me
(2:57:46 AM) ad: haha, i’m no hack
(2:57:46 AM) pk: word
(2:57:48 AM) pk: me too
(2:57:51 AM) pk: oh
(2:57:53 AM) pk: well good then
(2:57:55 AM) pk: i’ll juke you out then
(2:57:57 AM) pk: ;)
(2:57:59 AM) ad: unless you deserve it
(2:58:01 AM) ad: :)
(2:58:09 AM) ad: later man
(2:58:13 AM) ad: g’night
(2:58:14 AM) pk: word
(2:58:18 AM) pk: have a good one………..
(2:58:20 AM) pk: later